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satumma Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject: self producing Reply with quote

I am doing a grad student portfolio on six songs that I self produced, These are the main questions about my own recording process that I will be writing about, any insights?

Why self produce?
Is self production commercially viable?
Why not self produce?
Would it be preferable to work in a studio with other producers and engineers than self produce?
Would it be helpful to have recorded in a studio with a producer first?
Overcoming technical and/or musical limitations?
Balancing time between technical tasks and music making?
Remaining objective about the quality of the recordings?
Judging when the work is finished?
Staying motivated, creating goals?
Making money with self produced projects?

thank you!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want insight on six songs that you self produced and your own recording process.

From us?

Some of those are not questions. But I understand. In this modern age almost all young people end their statement with an upper inflection. Itís as if they donít speak the language and are unsure they stated the words properly.

I suppose that is my insight?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: self producing Reply with quote

satumma wrote:
I am doing a grad student portfolio on six songs that I self produced, These are the main questions about my own recording process that I will be writing about, any insights?

Why self produce?
Is self production commercially viable?
Why not self produce?
Would it be preferable to work in a studio with other producers and engineers than self produce?
Would it be helpful to have recorded in a studio with a producer first?
Overcoming technical and/or musical limitations?
Balancing time between technical tasks and music making?
Remaining objective about the quality of the recordings?
Judging when the work is finished?
Staying motivated, creating goals?
Making money with self produced projects?

thank you!


You welcome?
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dobro Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: self producing Reply with quote

satumma wrote:
Why self produce?


I'll answer one question, and maybe others will do the same. Here are the main reasons why somebody might self produce:

* they know what they're doing, and it's a lot cheaper

* they know what they're doing, and it's a lot more fun

* they don't really know what they're doing, but they're having fun doing
it all by themself (this is an argument for doing your own mastering too)

* they don't really know what they're doing, but they want to learn

* they would actually benefit from having a producer come in, but
they can't afford it so they self-produce

* they would actually benefit from having a producer come in, but they
don't know enough about the recording process to realize that, and
instead think they can do a bang up job all on their onesie

* whether or not they know what they're doing, they don't really need a producer - if it's just a guy and a guitar and a mic that's being recorded, you might argue that a producer isn't going to add much to the outcome.

* they self-produce because it's not a commercial deal

So, as you can see, there are good reasons for self-producing, and self-deluding reasons for self-producing. As for me, my reasons for self-producing are all of the good sort. Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: self producing Reply with quote

I'm not qualified as such to answer these questions, but these are my opinions:

Why self produce?
Why not? The role of a producer is to see your vision from initial thought to completion, if you know what you want, you can achieve it yourself, save money along the way, and possibly put more stress on yourself.

Is self production commercially viable?
Most definately! A lot of the big name artists self produce their albums, so why can't you? Besides, these days, what do you define as commercial? Store bought CD's / CD Baby / iTunes?

Why not self produce?
Less stress, external guidance might be able to direct you in to a direction you didn't think of, let someone else manage your production (and get paid for it)

Would it be preferable to work in a studio with other producers and engineers than self produce?
I don't think this would matter.. what would matter more is listening to their other work and liking what they have produced. Also, to see if you get along well with them.

Would it be helpful to have recorded in a studio with a producer first?
Compared to what? Or are you referring to your first product being produced by someone and then you learning production from them?

Overcoming technical and/or musical limitations?
Technical limitations.. that's the role of a Engineer, Musical limitations, you can always get studio muso's to play on your own recording, it's just a case of getting them to where your recording (or collaborating online).

Balancing time between technical tasks and music making?
Self producing means you are setting everything up, packing everything up and everything in between. Getting someone else to produce you WOULD reduce that, but would also cost you money.

Remaining objective about the quality of the recordings?
For this, you can always get outside opinions, just make sure it's not family.. (unless they can be critical), mind you, you might now like what your producer is producing for you (see above, working with other producers)

Judging when the work is finished?
Is a work of music ever complete Wink From a mixing or duration point of view? In your eyes it will most likely never be complete.. get it to a point you are happy with and if you have more time, work on the things which stick out the most first.

Staying motivated, creating goals?
Because I suck at this I'm probably not the best to answer. If you have a website that people read, maybe say 'new album out xxx' and set a date.. might force you to get something done because if it's not out then, people might question it. But as I said.. I suck at this bit Wink

Making money with self produced projects?
Look up Johnathan Coulton for a start! (granted his latest album is not self produced, but his early stuff is). Actually look him up to answer a number of the above questions. But making money, as long as you have a decent product, this is a different kettle of fish. It's now marketing! If you have a label, they can do this for you, if you are doing that by yourself, get a website and sell your music on there, and try selling it at other places as well, CD's via the likes of CD Baby, get your music up on iTunes and I think it's SoundClick (haven't done this but have seen artists who have). Just remember, when you sell it via iTunes etc, someone else get's part of your product.. via your website, it's all yours!

thank you!
Your welcome, hopefully I've helped a little!

Daniel

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stainless Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll jump in (as it's all academic or fantasy either way), so aside from monetary considerations-

Why self produce?

you know exactly what you want and have the ability to communicate this sonic vision to others in order to achieve your goals

Is self production commercially viable?

depends on too many other factors for this to be a viable question unto itself


Why not self produce?

the opposite of the first answer... or your are part of a band/group that has trouble reaching a consensus... or you realize you have no idea what you want but think you have a good idea

Would it be preferable to work in a studio with other producers and engineers than self produce?

if you're speaking of an internship, yes, this is a great way to learn how others do things, even if what you mainly learn is what you don't want to do. There is great advantage from seeking wisdom and insight from others with greater experience

Would it be helpful to have recorded in a studio with a producer first?

again too many factors

Overcoming technical and/or musical limitations?

desire and practice, practice, practice... but there is the reality for some that some things may be beyond your ability to master

Balancing time between technical tasks and music making?

do you prefer the technical side? if so hire musicians. If you prefer music making, hire technical people. If you wish to so both, work on your time management skills, as well as relationship skills, and life skills in general Wink

Remaining objective about the quality of the recordings?

how big is your ego???

Judging when the work is finished?

to some extent the previous answer may apply. If you have a clear goal, or a producer, someone will declare "DONE"... on the other hand, you can't polish a turd

Staying motivated, creating goals?

applies to life in general wouldn't you say?

Making money with self produced projects?

may the force be with you

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Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
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teek Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So ...... satumma .

are you going to share your OWN "insights" to these questions with us ???

i am thinking you guy's have just done his "homework" for him Razz

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

always glad to help Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teek wrote:
So ...... satumma .

are you going to share your OWN "insights" to these questions with us ???

i am thinking you guy's have just done his "homework" for him Razz


LOL - satumma - long gone.
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dobro Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we were the grad students in his 'I'm doing a grad student profile'. I think he's going to get his highest grade on the 'why self-produce?' question.
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satumma Offline
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry it took so long to get back, interesting replies though
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satumma Offline
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here, i'll share my current thoughts, mostly based on my own experience..

i self produce mostly out of necessity. i've never really done the band thing too much beyond a cover band that I was in for a while. i tried to find like minded people that wanted to write original tunes but most had different goals in mind. i'm sure this is not uncommon. so in order to get ideas down I started to record them. eventually i started to like the recording process as much or even more than the songwriting side.

is it commercially viable? I'm not sure I know the answer to this one yet. i know that I don't make any money doing this. its viable for the gear makers.. but is it ever going to be a business model that works well?

The reasons to NOT self produce are really just the remaining list of challenges that are the following questions. how to stay focused, to finish projects, not get distracted, not getting stuck on tasks that are either to hard technically or musically? all of these things have to be handled by yourself. you have to create strategies to succeed, and its these strategies that I find interesting...

my hardest challenge is finishing a song once i have all the music recorded and its time to write lyrics and create vocals. here is where i get stopped. i can either leave them as instrumentals or bang my head against the lyric/vocals wall... I am sure other people face their own walls in the process.

i hate trying to judge my own work. i can be totally happy one day and ready to delete everything and give up the next. and this can be from the same song! my impulse is to go back in and starting trying to add more tracks and fiddling with the arrangement yet again. its hard to get good feedback from somebody who you trust and who will be honest with you. the same holds true for the sound quality as well. there is always more time to mix again..

so these are some of the ideas I have so far, but for the sake of understanding how my process looks in relation to how other people are working I need to know a little about how this process looks for others...
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satumma Offline
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

more thoughts:


If you look at certain trends it makes sense that there is rise in the number of people who are
taking on the task of self production, aka home recording. On both the hardware and the software
sides of the equation you see easier access to the tools that musicians need to record at home.
Garage Band and its windows companions are nearly free or very cost effective, a trimmed down, but
highly functional, version of pro tools can be had for $100 with a basic interface. So it makes
sense that more and more musicians are recording themselves with home equipment.

The upside to this trend is that more and more musicians will have access to getting their music
recorded, which means that there is a better chance that people will hear this music.
Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that really great songs
will be made. In the past there was a filtering mechanism in place to decide which artists and
bands could get their music recorded. The music industry, record labels, A&R people used to be the
gatekeepers to studio access. Without the green light from the industry bands would have minimal
chance of getting their songs recorded in a studio and heard by the general public. Even in this
era of limited studio access there was still more music than could be reasonably consumed by
everyone, hence the existence of radio and marketing to try to pair listeners with music.

It can be argued, and I think justifiably, that some sort of filtering mechanism needs to be in
place to bring the better quality music to the broader public. Even though there is now an
abundance of music being made, there is so much recorded music that very few of us have time to
evaluate all of it to find the gems from the coal. Many people just wait for the "good stuff" to
float to the top and be recognized before taking a chance.

So from an artist's point of view, being able to cheaply and easily record your music in your own
studio is a great opportunity. But then getting that music heard is a challenge that far exceeds
the actual songwriting and recording. Much is being written about artists promotion in the age of
"music 3.0"

While I think its important to talk about getting music out and marketed and paying for itself I
feel there is a lack of information in the area between "what gear to buy" and "how to market your
music". In particular there is very little talk about the issues that are unique to a self
production situation, information, that if available, would help raise the overall success rate
and quality of self produced recordings.

My challenge then is to try to find out what these issues are, try to gather together successful
strategies and then make them available for others so that when confronted with one of these
roadblacks there is a resource available to turn to. Much in the same way that musicians would
seek out technical resources to an issue.

From my own observation it seems that many of the tricks of the trade used by professional
producers are passed down through the work done in professional studios. Many of these techniques
can be useful to home studio producers as well. But at the same time, there are also situations
that are more specific to self production that have no clear way of being shared from one person
to the next. The obvious place to look for this information might be online forums, videos and
blogs. Is there also a need for this information in the formal educational system dedicated to
recording? I think so.

So what are these unique challenges and opportunities to self produced musicians? I have a list of
some that come from my own experience working in my home studios for years, but I believe that
there is also other ideas that people have come up with that stem from their own experiences as
well. That is what I am looking for.
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dobro Offline
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, when you say 'self-producing', you're including marketing and distribution of the product?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmm-

a few more thoughts-

while, Yes, there is some really inexpensive software and hardware- there are limitations. I am a Mac user and therefore have (by default) Garageband... basically a very stripped down version of logic.... and while entertaining, to think that one could record something with an acceptable level of commercial quality using the onboard sound card is ludicrous at best. Granted there have a been a few pretty decent things recorded using GarageBand, but if you check the credentials of the authors (aka engineer/producer) these people have a fair amount of experience)

likewise the M-Box entry level ProTools- ProTools is a viable software (albeit M is a bit crippled), but the converters or clock are low quality... the 001's weren't much better, nor the 002's, nor IMHO the 003's, and they saddle you with their poor built-in pre's (and even using a line in, you still go through their gain circuitry)

so, while a good way to get introduced... there's a reason the high end converters, close and pres... are... uh high end

and a sad mistake that many many home recordists make is to completely overlook room acoustics and treatment thereof.

technology has come a long, long way, but sadly some of the algorithms approach an AI reality- one can be a half-assed musician and still, with the aid of pitch correction, and an assortment of other 'editing/ enhancement" software/tools sound like you actually know what you're doing... deceiving? dishonest?... you tell me- can you sing or can't you can you play, or can't you?

marketing- how do you base success? the # of friends on the social media networks who give a thumbs up/like? or by actual sales of tunes?

and who would filter? the record labels often consisted of folks who were neither performer nor composer, so they were more focused on what was commercially viable. Now I'll admit that one persons commercially viable is another's crap/trash, but how would you assemble a 'panel of judges". me thinks you'd need genre specific "filter groups" which in this expanding age of ever increasing genres could be damned difficult to find unbiased folks.

the tricks of the trade... unfortunately often involve expensive pieces of hardware, so while one can substitute... it's not the same trick unless one has the means to set the stage using the same 'props'

I suppose your pondering might have more relevance if you posted some of your material- after-all, you have access to lot's that we've all thrown out there for comments... for better of for worse

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teek Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Popcorn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

satumma wrote:
more thoughts:


Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that really great songs will be made.
Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that no audience will ever hear it. This because nobody has the time to listen to it all.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drstawl wrote:
satumma wrote:
more thoughts:


Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that really great songs will be made.
Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that no audience will ever hear it. This because nobody has the time to listen to it all.


Or the fact that a really good song which instead of being sent to an A&R person is recorded by someone not associated with a label and will never generate the potential money it could have it only submitted to the A&R person..

In saying that, half the crap going around in mainsteam these days is just that.. crap..

Daniel

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drstawl wrote:
satumma wrote:
more thoughts:


Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that really great songs will be made.
Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that no audience will ever hear it. This because nobody has the time to listen to it all.


That's what I thought, too.

+1

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dobro wrote:
drstawl wrote:
satumma wrote:
more thoughts:


Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that really great songs will be made.
Statistically, the more music that is being made the greater the chance that no audience will ever hear it. This because nobody has the time to listen to it all.


That's what I thought, too.

+1


I believe that in many ways the "Freedom" offered by the Internet is at the same time the executioners axe.

Anybody pay attention to Billboards top100?.... how about the local radio stations top 40? ... lets play a good song to death....

How do we judge the appeal, popularity, "draw" of any tune in this day of personalized i-Pod playlists?

everything now seems to be based on whether it goes 'viral ' on YouTube... the new A&R, much of which (sadly) is manipulated)... most anyone can find a program that changes the computer ID or originators e-mail... so you SPAM a posting

we are now (IMHO) in an age where a songwriter/artists greatest hope lies in selling a tune to TV/Movies/Advertising or getting into the rotation on Pandora, etc

there will always be crowds who want live music... less so those that will yearn for originals over covers... but that's localized/regional

like it ornot A&R filled a very big niche... those some may revolt at being told "what to like"... would we have heard the like of Buddy Holly, Elvis, the Beatles, (insert someone who inspired you here....)?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in my case, I'm not so bothered about whether anyone ever recognizes the greatness of my music. Laughing And I don't much care if it makes money or fame, cuz at the moment at least I've got a day job. Sure, it would be cool if a million people listened to my stuff and liked it, and it would be cool if I got something back for the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours I've put into this. But for me, self-producing has been a lot of fun, and it's also been the occasion for me to get ever more deeply into something that I originally thought I was good at, but which I learned I wasn't as good as I thought (and so, by putting more work into it, I became slightly better than I *actually* was). Anything that you love and which also shows you what you're really made of is very cool. I couldn't have done that without computer recording and the internet.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean to imply is was a "bad" thing, but rather in the context of satumma's responses the idealism was a bit... lost

I have no visions of grandeur... nor would I want to tour to promote much of anything

the Internet is indeed a tool, and for a very few, it expands the universe (more than the A&R/labels... who knows)

but in the reality of day to day existence


pfffffffffffffft.... get over yourself.... unless considerable time and effort is put into promotion...

can you say Cinderella? magical thinking... sure a dream, a goal is great... and's it's what drives us...but ...understand where fantasy eminate

I know sounds jaded... and no doubt I am... got caught up in the hype a couple of time, thinking "this is the break we've been .... etc..." and I know a few who've had hits...now they host open jams and work as instructors at local music stores, or have a "commercial" studio and make a living... but very few have made it into 'fame and fortune"

I minored in business, and yes, that was my saving grace... now, the music is a creative outlet, mainly because I don't know how to stop, but should someone else curtail their efforts? HELL NO, go for it....!!!! In the words of BladeRunner ....RENEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sometimes I make a few bucks...and what do I do with it? I buy more gear to "improve my sound" it's a sickness

in truth it may be an as yet 'undescribed mental illness"


Laughing sorta

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you're jaded at all, Stan. But you're a sick fuck for buying all that gear, yeah. Laughing Tell me about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it when you talk dirty to me!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I screwed myself .... got pregnant by me and gave birth to a strapping Lt. Bob ..... the epitome of self produced.
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