You must log in or register to post. Registration is free! [ Register ]

The Recording Project Forum Index -> Microphones

FAQ Search Photo Album!
 second 4050
View previous topic :: View next topic 
Post new topic  Reply to topic
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: second 4050 Reply with quote

I can't get my music shop to let me try out mics, so I gave up trying to find a mic I like better than the AT 4050 for either vocals or guitar and bought a second one. Now I can even do a stereo pair! Cool
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, satisfaction at last. I'm okay with the guitar sound and I'm okay with the vocal sound, both at the same time. (I'm struggling with the new version of Audition, but at least I've got sound I like.)

Tonight, I A/B'ed the 4050 on the guitar with both the SM58 and the SM7b. Both combinations sound good, but I got my best take with the SM7b. Tried different mic angles too. 90 degrees didn't sound as good as 60 degrees between the two mics. But where the hell is the capsule in the SM7b? It's all covered with foam and I can't tell. With the 4050, you can SEE the capsule through the mesh.

Finally. Damn, this has taken a long time.

Here's a Bruce Swedien vocal tip:

"The vocal recordings I'm most proud of have mostly all been done with the mic in cardioid pattern - an extremely high quality condenser microphone, vintage or newer, will do nicely. I have pair of Neumann U-47s that I bought new in 1953 that I absolutely adore...but I did use my SM7 most often on Michael Jackson..."

Well there he goes dropping names. And sounding like the recordings he did of Jackson weren't the ones he's most proud of. Anyway, I'm going: 'Well maybe some day I'll have a couple vintage U-47s to adore as well, but in the meantime I'm not looking for anything else, this is as good as my budget will allow.' I'll have to make up for it in performance. Fine with me. Cool

_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you mic'ing an acoustic or a guitar cab?

and someday I'd like to have a pair of vintage U-47's... someday... but it'll have to be in the next life because the world ends in less than 2 hours...

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you mic'ing an acoustic or a guitar cab?

and someday I'd like to have a pair of vintage U-47's... someday... but it'll have to be in the next life because the world ends in less than 2 hours...

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you mic'ing an acoustic or a guitar cab?

and someday I'd like to have a pair of vintage U-47's... someday... but it'll have to be in the next life because the world ends in less than 2 hours...

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cabinet.
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cabinet.
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A cabinet.
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

must be an echo in here....

I place the plane of the diaphragm parallel to the cone

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen that. Until now, if I put two mics on the amp, I angle the mics slightly. I'll try two mics straight on tonight, and report back.
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lt. Bob Offline
On a Break


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: America's Wang
Age: 65


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put pink noise thru the amp and listen to it thru headphones as I move the mic around.
Try it ..... after you familiarize yourself with how pink noise sounds, you can really tell what effect moving the mic is having.
I bet there's a pink noise app. I KNOW there's a RTA app so that's gonna have pink noise.

I frequently put my mics off-axis for amps ..... even 90degrees sometimes.

_________________
Of course your take on me, is going to be different than my take on me --- GT
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See what you've done is answered a question I've got that I haven't got round to asking yet. I love that prescient shit. Thumb Up How do you figure out good mic placement all on yer onesie. Yessir. That's how. Save tons of time. Laughing
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

supreme commander Bob wrote:
I put pink noise thru the amp and listen to it thru headphones as I move the mic around.
Try it ..... after you familiarize yourself with how pink noise sounds, you can really tell what effect moving the mic is having.
I bet there's a pink noise app. I KNOW there's a RTA app so that's gonna have pink noise.

I frequently put my mics off-axis for amps ..... even 90degrees sometimes.


Okay, I've got pink noise, I can generate that. But putting it through the amp is beyond me.

_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dobro wrote:
Tonight, I A/B'ed the 4050 on the guitar with both the SM58 and the SM7b. Both combinations sound good, but I got my best take with the SM7b. Tried different mic angles too. 90 degrees didn't sound as good as 60 degrees between the two mics. But where the hell is the capsule in the SM7b? It's all covered with foam and I can't tell. With the 4050, you can SEE the capsule through the mesh.


Okay, if you very gently push the foam on the front of the sm7b, your finger touches something metal - a screen, I'm hoping. Laughing If I sight along it toward the 4050, I can line up the metal meshes of each mic.

Not only that, but the 58 sounds better with the 4050, I think. Cool

_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lt. Bob Offline
On a Break


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: America's Wang
Age: 65


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dobro wrote:
supreme commander Bob wrote:
I put pink noise thru the amp and listen to it thru headphones as I move the mic around.
Try it ..... after you familiarize yourself with how pink noise sounds, you can really tell what effect moving the mic is having.
I bet there's a pink noise app. I KNOW there's a RTA app so that's gonna have pink noise.

I frequently put my mics off-axis for amps ..... even 90degrees sometimes.


Okay, I've got pink noise, I can generate that. But putting it through the amp is beyond me.
you just need the proper adapter. probably 1/8th to 1/4"
_________________
Of course your take on me, is going to be different than my take on me --- GT
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is the pink noise a plug-in in your software? if so set up a track and add that to it, set the output to an analog output other than your monitors/headphones... or to an send (as we don't know what interface you're using, there should at least be an available analog output , or a send (for sending to a external compressor, EQ, etc)- run a cable from that output source (and you may need the adapter as Bob mentioned into your amp

Set the mic channel to record and hit the play button (on some programs you'll have to actually hit the record button to hear what the mic is picking up)

if that fails, record the pink noise to a channel and hard pan the output (say to the L) and use the main output as your source (this will cause the pink noise to only be in you're left ear, so set the mic panned hard R and then pan your headphone hard right

once you figure this out you could use this for routing most anything to an external piece of gear

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
nomad1970 Offline
Active Member


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Great White North


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pink noise? Wow, you guys put a lot of effort into micing an amp. No disrespect intended, but just stick a SM57 in front of it. If you point it at the center of the speaker = treble / some may say 'harsh', off to the edge of the speaker, less treble / less harsh, off axis - a bit roomy sounding. Distance - I usually mic about 1 - 12" from grill.

Where you place it depends on what sound you want right?

If it's a decent amp, guitar, player, and you have the amp dialed in relatively well it isn't rocket science.

I often use 2 mics, one close to the amp as described, and another several feet away. This gives you some interesting mixing options down the road.

Lots of variables. Most important being the player, the sound / quality of the amp, and having a little foresight as to how it will fit in the mix.

I guess I'm just lazy... Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stainless - yeah, I figure I can record a track of pink noise and then play it back, running an output from my interface to the amp. Headphones on, move the mics around - should work.

Em - yeah, I know, it's anal. But it takes me a long time to notice differences in sound using the 'record then listen to playback' approach, and I'm thinking doing this just the once or twice might show me something happening with mic position.

_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad1970 wrote:
I often use 2 mics, one close to the amp as described, and another several feet away. This gives you some interesting mixing options down the road.


I tried that the other day - it's interesting. It's got natural room sound, and if you put a different verb on it, you can tweak the sense of space.

_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lt. Bob Offline
On a Break


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: America's Wang
Age: 65


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad1970 wrote:
Pink noise? Wow, you guys put a lot of effort into micing an amp. No disrespect intended, but just stick a SM57 in front of it. If you point it at the center of the speaker = treble / some may say 'harsh', off to the edge of the speaker, less treble / less harsh, off axis - a bit roomy sounding. Distance - I usually mic about 1 - 12" from grill.

Where you place it depends on what sound you want right?

If it's a decent amp, guitar, player, and you have the amp dialed in relatively well it isn't rocket science.

I often use 2 mics, one close to the amp as described, and another several feet away. This gives you some interesting mixing options down the road.

Lots of variables. Most important being the player, the sound / quality of the amp, and having a little foresight as to how it will fit in the mix.

I guess I'm just lazy... Smile

well, it's really not that hard and, IMO, it's much quicker and easier than putting the mic where you think it should go .. recording a sample ..... listening to that and then moving the mic a little bit, recording a sample of that .... listening ... etc. until you get what you want.

With the pink noise it's a matter of a minute or two ..... seriously ..... you can quickly find the fullest or least shrill or whatever sound you're looking for.
If your amp and mic stay permanently set up then there's no need for it.
But if you have to set it up each time and simply put the mic where you remember putting it last time, you'd be surprised ..... moving it even an inch makes a big difference ANnnndddddd, the angle of the mic against the speaker makes a huge difference also.

I saw the pink noise tip in a recording mag and once I tried it ........ for me it was just obviously the way to do it.

Not overthinking it here ......... it's certainly not a neccessary technique.
I hear LOTS of great recorded git sounds and probably very few used this technique.
But I found it amazingly useful in not only the search for a good guitar tone but also helping me to have a better understanding of exactly what moving a mic around does to the sound it picks up.

_________________
Of course your take on me, is going to be different than my take on me --- GT
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
stainless Offline
Ultra Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 5231
Location: Left Coast... away from earthquakes
Age: 64


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it definitely varies with different players (even using the same amp/guitar) in which case i start with what "I like when I'm playing" and as there's usually another person (besides the guitarist) I'll have them move the mic while I listen using talkback to give direction (closer/farther, towards center/away from, etc)... then for that player I make a note in my song/session sheet (including amp settings, guitar settings) in case we have to do a punch in at a later time

but when I'm 'home alone' the pink noise works well, which is often the case if I'm re-amping something

early on I'd make a masking tape grid of 2" squares (using 1" tape) so I could get the most accurate measurement (I've since gotten a bit less anal about these things Laughing

_________________
Stainless ....

I wish I could be traded like a penny in the arcade for a token to be played
on a cello strung with strings that are my dreams



Check out our music at http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/stainlessbrown[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile
nomad1970 Offline
Active Member


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Great White North


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I'm not discrediting this technique, it's nothing new to me. If it works for you, excellent!

I find simpler is better for me. Recording and writing is tough enough, and especially when recording other people, esoteric methods would wreck the flow. FOR ME - just to be clear, no offense towards your, or others methods of recording a guitar amp. BTW, it's not about 'putting a mic where you think it should go' - it's about placing a mic where you *know* it should go, based on experience.

And that takes a bit of experimentation.

My advice to dobro would be to get the basics down as I stated in my previous post.

1. What sound are you trying to achieve in the mix?
2. Center cone = treble, edge cone = mellower
3. Typical distance 1" to 12"
4. Experiment

It doesn't take too many tries to get it right. You end up EQ'ing in the mix 99% of the time anyway.

Or go Pink Noise, Christ get out a spectrum analyzer and have that setup all the time to! haha... Smile

All in good fun.

Emeric
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
nomad1970 Offline
Active Member


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Great White North


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW Dobro, I hope I don't sound condescending. I know you are new to the electric side of guitars, so my advice is honest. I've 'known' you for a decade or so now.... Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
dobro Offline
more personal tittle


Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 15542
Age: 28


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get more out of stuff when people talk about what they're doing or have done. Especially when I'm considering what to do. Cool
_________________
You must enter a message when posting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lt. Bob Offline
On a Break


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12390
Location: America's Wang
Age: 65


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad1970 wrote:
Or go Pink Noise, Christ get out a spectrum analyzer and have that setup all the time to! haha... Smile

yeah ...... that's really hard.

But I'm gonna quit doing it since it's so hard.

I think I'll unhhok all 5 of my effects processers since it's SO hard to turn them on an use them.

Rolling Eyes

_________________
Of course your take on me, is going to be different than my take on me --- GT
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:    View previous topic :: View next topic 
Quick Reply      
Use this form to post a quick reply without having to go through the normal reply process.    
     
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Recording Project Forum Index -> Microphones All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum