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 !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! >&g
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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! >&g Reply with quote

-6db = - 1bit

Less Volume is Less Bitrate = Less sharpness when you zoom in (turn up the volume) after the export!

Just like in graphic, when you create a Sci-fi picture in photoshop.
if you will export it in small size, you won't be able to see the picture as clear in big size, becuase it will lose sharpness when you zoom in! (specially the small details will appear blurry). the smallest size when you export, the less Pixels that image will contain.

Same goes with the sound!
When you "squash" a little bit the sound, you save sharpness and dynamics for BIG PARTIES with BIG SOUNDSYSTEM even for the small details in ur track!!!
these days if you won't do it well, your music will sound weak in big sound system compare to other artists, not becuase the volume but becuase the "headroom" bitrate of the sound.

lets just say, that the lower the volume is after exported, the less "unit of information" it contains

just like with busy mix with lots of instruments to easy mix with few instruments, the more instruments you got, you have to turn their volume down and down...while everytime you decrease an instrument by 6db, you decrease it by -1bit!

by making everything as loud as possible you earn bit "headroom" that can be used well in the final mix, after you have mixed everything you should use multiband compressor to get the maximum volume you can without touching the master fader (keep it 0db always) becuase the master fader is a zoom in/out, just like in image pixels, the biggest you export it, the better it will shine when zoom in after the final accomplished and exported!

That's kinda new point of view that I was thinking.
I know my english kinda sux, but I hope you understand my point.


Any comments welcome. ^_^
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Trojka Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this...
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seanmorse Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojka wrote:
Read this...


That was as eloquently worded (and illustrated) as I've seen.

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Trojka Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MFSL will save the world.
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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojka wrote:
Read this...


Nothing new...you can be sure that I already knew that.

however...he didn't write about the lose of bitrate! lose of sharpness! in sound reinforcement!
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Dethska Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOH
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a crock to me.... AC DC a bunch of records that were mastered pretty low... Try and tell me they are not "sharp" or "loud" enough.....
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
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GT Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No dynamic range=No dynamic range.

Sorry for the rocket science dc.

GT Wink
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Porter Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just quickly, your 'photoshop' explination sounded more like taking a 16bit/44.1Khz 'image' of sound and comparing it to an mp3 file at a much lesser quality.

What you are saying is don't record all tracks hot as it won't give you room to bring any levels up for the final mix/mastering etc.
Heh.. I won't even think of a graphical representation of that Wink

Daniel

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M.Brane Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! &g Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:

Just like in graphic, when you create a Sci-fi picture in photoshop.
if you will export it in small size, you won't be able to see the picture as clear in big size, becuase it will lose sharpness when you zoom in! (specially the small details will appear blurry). the smallest size when you export, the less Pixels that image will contain.


Wrong.

There is no reduction in audio resolution by using less bits as long as you have enough bits to accurately represent the source material. The A/D converts the sound into bits, and the D/A reconstructs those bits back into an analog waveform. Simple as that.

Now if you want to go into a discussion of the problems of A/D-D/A conversion, digital processing, or the merits of compressing the dynamic range of the source material that is fine, but your comparison of digital audio to digital photography is seriously flawed.

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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! &a Reply with quote

M.Brane wrote:
dreamzcatcher wrote:

Just like in graphic, when you create a Sci-fi picture in photoshop.
if you will export it in small size, you won't be able to see the picture as clear in big size, becuase it will lose sharpness when you zoom in! (specially the small details will appear blurry). the smallest size when you export, the less Pixels that image will contain.


Wrong.

There is no reduction in audio resolution by using less bits as long as you have enough bits to accurately represent the source material. The A/D converts the sound into bits, and the D/A reconstructs those bits back into an analog waveform. Simple as that.

Now if you want to go into a discussion of the problems of A/D-D/A conversion, digital processing, or the merits of compressing the dynamic range of the source material that is fine, but your comparison of digital audio to digital photography is seriously flawed.



As I wrote at the end, "That's kinda new point of view that I was thinking"

Its an open discussion, interesting issue for me.
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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to add that you guys are totally arrogant in term of stupidity.

I could upload example that proof my point, but you know what... with such comments I don't even care what you think and do.
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Emeric Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! &g Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:



Any comments welcome. ^_^


Guess not eh?

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pglewis Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some technical merit to what you're saying, on a mostly theoretical level.

The higher the digital level, the more bits used, therefore more potential resolution. But 24-bit source files, dithering, and keeping a /reasonable/ level for the final mix is plenty.

Don't confuse theory with practical application. I highly doubt you or just about anyone could tell a difference between two files, one 6dB louder than the other (and no other differences), played back at the same volume. Unless you get the lower level file so low that resolution or noise does become a factor.

Higher volume and more bits does not guarantee you better quality audio, and the methods often used to achieve those levels are usually WAY more damaging to the audio than losing a couple bits of resolution.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked peege's post.

Additionally, I think there's a self limiting aspect to the louder is better idea. Once you start clipping, more louder is more worse.

At 24 bits, the experts all seem to agree that you shouldn't be worrying about increasing levels to get better resolution. It's sort of a "distinction without a difference" kind of thing.

And Emeric get the "post of the week award."

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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plz try to be less arrogant Smile

anyway lets keep on topic:
When I say something I check myself as well, therefor the results:

(this is so extreme, you don't even need to listen)
Watch This -->


All I done was turn down the volume -80db which is nearly -13bits!!!, saved it as 16 bit, open the 16 and bring it up it to 0db again.

the results can tell you a lot.


Credit to Dagan Israeli for his mastermind.
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TripleM Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I'm lost. Does this prove louder is better? Seems to show 24 bit has better resolution than 16 bit. But I didn't hear anyone disagree with that.

And what's with the arrogant stuff? We're just talking.

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pglewis Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:
Plz try to be less arrogant Smile


I will if you will Very Happy.

You've pointed out a fine lesson: do not turn your levels down 80dB. I addressed this with the sentence "Unless you get the lower level file so low that resolution or noise does become a factor."

Now reread what I wrote. There may just be some important things in there about "practical application" that you missed as well.

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dreamzcatcher Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pglewis,

Sound like in everything at life, is about comparison, when there is a sample mixed inside the mix at low volume, it will lose its shape and sharpness when you hear it from far at a big festival.

when the sound is more tight, you can hear more sharpness of low volume mixed instruments from far!


I play in such festivals
you can imagine how important is the mix, so everyone will be able to hear every single sound and hear it at its best. the sound must be tight and "strong" so every single will be detailed in sound reinforcement.



Last edited by dreamzcatcher on Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gfh Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher,

I'm hoping that there's just a language barrier here, because there are a lot of terms and absolutes being tossed around here, but nothing that makes a whole lot of sense.

While it's true that loud things are often perceived as sounding "better" (until you start getting near the pain threshold) using all the bits in a 24 bit audio recording is more often than not detrimental sound quality. You may be technically losing a marginal amount of resolution, but as pglewis is saying, it's pretty much imperceptible at normal levels, especially in comparison to the distortion that you're imparting by running the gear so far outside the range where it was meant to operate, which is line level, around -20dBFS on most digital systems.

This is pretty much immediately evident with just a little experimenting. If you record a bunch of tracks where you pretend that -12dBFS is the maximum and get the meat of the signal around -20dBFS, then record a bunch of tracks where you run everything as hot as possible to 0dBFS, and try to mix them both. You'll find that the one recorded near true line level mixes much easier, and the final result sounds better when they're compensated for the volume difference with your playback machine's volume.

This is pretty well accepted reality for most of us around here.


Last edited by gfh on Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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pglewis Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you are confused by one technical aspect.

Lopping off 13 of 16 bits by dropping the volume by 80dB is not a normal process when working with audio. It does not prove your point. Simple binary tells me that you'd be left with 8 discrete values to represent the sound at that point, and the pics you showed illustrates this.

This is not new or groundbreaking information, dreamy. In a practical situation you are not going to lose more than a bit or two with reasonable volume levels. Again, I'll wager a nickel you cannot tell the difference between two files 6dB apart played back at the same level in a double-blind test. UNLESS you do something ridiculous like drop the first file 80dB and drop the second one only 74dB. That's not practical, silly.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things are apparent from this fucked up thread.

1. pglewis knows more about math than I know about anything; and
2. dreamzcatcher has never played a festival in his life.

Love,
The Arrogant One

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at waveform overviews in an editor is useless in this discussion. It's what comes out of the D/A converter that matters. Waveform overviews are just that: overviews. It's not what you are hearing.

Here's a little experiment for you. Record the same source at the same level once at 24bit, and again at 16. Bet you won't hear any difference whatsoever.

You also seem to be making a connection between bitrate, and perceived loudness. Any source material with wide dynamic range is going to suffer in an environment with a high noise floor like an outdoor festival. Bitrate really has nothing to do with that. Increasing perceived volume on material with wide dynamic range is accomplished with compression/limiting. The more you compress/limit the source the less bits you need to accurately represent it in the digital domain which is contradictory to what you seem to be suggesting here.

BTW if you consider simply stating facts to be arrogant, then I guess I am. Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_Harris wrote:
Two things are apparent from this fucked up thread.

1. pglewis knows more about math than I know about anything; and
2. dreamzcatcher has never played a festival in his life.

Love,
The Arrogant One


how sad

37 years old musician/engineer being sarcastic to a 24 years old artist.
you don't like your job that much i guess...

Anyway I played in so many festivals I doubt you will ever do half of what I do in a year.

I might be half wrong but I just wanted to talk about something in my mind...
any I guess this place isn't for me -.-

later >.>

ps- pglewis, thanks for ur comments.
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