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 sample drums sounding like real ones...
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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: sample drums sounding like real ones... Reply with quote

Anyone knows the secret to make sample drums sound like real drums...? Anyone has heard a song with sample drums sounding like real drums? the secret is the mix or the complex and not repetitive drum patterns...?
honestly I think most of the drums on songs of Kelly Clarkson are sample drums and some sound like real ones...what you think?

(those were 2 questions...) Rolling Eyes

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scrubs Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few components to discuss:

1. Samples - Today's samples can sound like real drums because, for the most part, they are high-quality recordings of real drums. Not only that, but the inexpensiveness of memory means that sample banks can now hold multiple samples of the same drum (i.e. different volumes, hits from different places on the head, etc.) making it possible to introduce slight variations in hits so you don't have the same exact sound each time.

2. Programming the rhythms - I think it helps if you actually have played drums, or at least understand how drummers compose parts. Knowing what is physically possible and how a drummer transitions from one part to the next will help things sound more real.

3. Timing/Dynamics - This is the part where it is tough. Real drummers aren't perfectly in time. There are slight fluctuations in timing. Also, for some songs, the drummer may play slightly ahead of, or behind, the beat for a different feel. There are also certain accents that give a beat its pulse, and working these into the hihat and snare patterns is important.

4. Sound replacement - Understand that what you hear on albums may not be what you think. Often, the drums are played by a real session drummer to capture the timing/feel of the performance. However, drums can then be edited and replaced with samples (drumagog, etc.). Thus, the actual drum tracks (kick, snare, toms) are just used to trigger samples. That may be what you're hearing on the Kelly Clarkson song - a real drummer, replaced/augmented by samples.

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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you good points to think about
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abozung Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nocturn,
What scrubs said +
1. I am convinced the actual playing of the drums cannot be duplicated by programming in terms of dynamics. Scrubs touched on varying accents that really pulse a track. That is essential. That usually comes by the kinetic energy put into the drums. Engergy put into playing (feeling the stick hit the hi-hat, toms and the kick laying into the bass drum head) all reflect back a certain energy that is essential to the feel of the track. Not just timing variences, but a feel varience between instruments. Its kind of like multitracking and laying down one instrument first, then layering other over that. Somehow there has to be a gel between all tracks and instruments that make a great recording. In fact, a trap set is different instruments and with that being said, the combination of these instruments when put together flow and accent and have dynamics just simply by playing the different instruments together. This is what is difficult and nearly impossible to program. In programming, all the instruments (kick, snare, HH, toms etc...) are singled out in thought and the very process in which they are put together. That is why a drummer needs to program drums (cause they can sort of imagine these components while programming), but in the end it is just that, their imagined replica of what they could actually just play.
2. Loops at least capture a performance, but again they are tough to put together uniformally to make an entire drum track sound real. You are also limited by the set of loops in terms of what different fill styles and beats styles to chose from.
3. As far as the samples go, yes there can be multiple samples per voice (drum sound), but comparatively there is a huge real range of a drum from when it is attacked to the decay of the tone. This would be like mixing a song with only certain "KEY" frequencies to dial in. Like someone decided that you only needed these few frequency ranges to do it and that should be good enough. You and I know that it just doesn't work like that.
Hope this helps.
Boz

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soundchaser59 Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont know if you are talking about a particular drum machine? or software?

A machine with decent samples can be made to sound more realistic by playing the riffs on a piano (midi controller). For example, assign 3 or 4 very similar but not identical sounding snare drums to 4 adjacent piano keys, so that you can play a snare roll using your left index finger and your first 2 or 3 right hand fingers. As if you were trying to simulate a snare roll on a table top. After you get the hang of it, it starts to sound pretty convincing. I did it a lot on my SR16 and it was decent.

Most drum machiens sound a little dull and lifeless at low volumes especially. Run the machine thru a BBE Maximizer. A lot of people hate maximizers on other things, but it really works wonders on a drum machine. Add just a hint of short room reverb.

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soundchaser59 Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or give Groove Agent a test drive!! Smile
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abozung Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soundchaser,
I would be interested in hearing some of those grooves. Sounds like a cool technique!
TBoz

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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own....Groove Agent, EZ drummer and some not bad smples....and I am never glad qwith my drum tracks...I always hear them programmed..maybe is the mix...or the lack of room....or the flat dynamics of the snare drum...i dont know
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm never happy with samples unless i make them myself

i dont have a drumset anymore and i dont have a good room for a drumset anyway so im working with drum samples that others have made.

a lot of the music that i like - velvet underground, led zeppelin, rolling stones, ramones etc - has repetetive beats so thats not the problem

the problem is the samples themselves. they dont sound like the drums on the original recordings. theyre usually close-miked and too hi-fi with way too much proximity effect.

when i use them in my tunes they dominate the mix with horrible punchy sound

ive been using parametric eq to take out the ugliest boxiest sounds out of each sample and i run each sample through an amp simulator and the results so far are very encouraging.

it takes a lot of the punchiness out and emphasizes the harmonics and in a way it makes the samples sound "more like" drums. its kind of a magical transformation.

its like trying to simulate a more distant mic technique and analog tape which adds harmonic distortion to get the nicer drum sounds of my favorite music.
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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What amp simulator do you use? groovyisland?
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i use native instruments hammond b4 in fx mode in sound forge with the speaker sim set to direct box

you can watch the tube glow while you preview the sound

today i took an especially lame muffled sounding snare i had put in my fruity loops collection for some reason...

i wanted a bonham snare so i put it through the sim and added long hall reverb and damn that thing brightened up and sounds pretty sweet
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i made an example beat to post here but i dont know how. i guess i have to wait til i have 50 posts to use the file hosting thing
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe i should run up my post count somehow but i hate to do that
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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I would like to hear your sample!
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha ha now its turning into a song

i tried a free file hosting site but it wouldnt accept my mp3

do you have sound forge?
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would hate to put it on nowhere radio cause its just a few bars and it would displace somebodys song on the new list
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe i should just post here until i get 50
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sound
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool?
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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

como se dice en espanol

does that sound cool?
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Nocturn Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eso suena chido?

just go to the aux box forum and you will easyly patch your post counter lol

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groovyisland Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. hey did you check the trimming of the samples? do you have sound forge or something like it where you can see the waveforms and clip off the silence? that would cause the slight latency or delay you were talking about.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh testing new sig
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