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soundchaser59 Offline
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Any Ozone People Here with Trips and Ticks?? Reply with quote

So......

Anything any of you care to share as far as tips and secrets and tricks of the trade about Ozone? Now that I have read the manual and understand more about what it is for, I figured this might be a good time to ask again....like what do you use most, what do you use least, what do you never use, what do you use every time no matter what, what is least likely to butcher my mix, what is quickest to butcher my mix, maybe 3 or 4 of your favorite presets, etc....

In addition to anything you offer regarding the above questions, I am particularly interested in whether you compare your tunes to the "tonal balance" of other store-bought tunes (like Steely Dan? Grusin? Chicago? Skynyrd? SRV? Jazz? Blues?) and whether you have that in mind as you work to try and emulate some of the curves you find in commercial cd's. (ala pg.20 in the Ozone Mastering Guide)

Appreciate anything you can jot down for me. I have a hunch that Ozone has a lot to do with getting "that sound" that simple sequencer mixing and standard plugin processing cannot give me. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have a hunch that Ozone has a lot to do with getting "that sound" that simple sequencer mixing and standard plugin processing cannot give me.

Now of course, I'm biased. That said - Ozone has little or nothing to do with getting "that sound" that you're looking for. It has always been (and will continue to be) about the core sounds. Red is red. Blue is blue. Green is green. You can tweak sounds and alter that color - but a mix is going to be the way a mix is going to be. You can "tailor" a sound to fit a mix - but the mix is going to dictate how it wants to be mixed just as much, if not more than the engineer.

THAT said, I have tried Ozone. Put me in the "moderately unimpressed" column. Nothing that can't be done better with most native plugs I've tried. Except for all the maul-the-band control that it has. But if a mix is actually asking for much of that, go back to the mix and find out what went wrong and fix it there. Ozone is wonderful for *changing* a mix spectrally. But that's not a compliment. If you wanted it to sound like that, you should've mixed it like that. Scratch that - You should've *tracked* it like that. Taking care of it later isn't the answer.

I know a lot of people like Ozone - I just found it far too invasive and reliant on multi-band processing to take it seriously. Although I used it on a bass track once with a bassist who refused to change his strings and then wondered why it sounded so crappy...

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MASSIVE Mastering wrote:
If you wanted it to sound like that, you should've mixed it like that. Scratch that - You should've *tracked* it like that. Taking care of it later isn't the answer.


Then I dont understand..... why aren't all the mastering masters acting as mixers instead, and just putting the whole mastering business outa business? Your comment implies that if it CAN be done correctly in the first place in the mix, then we shouldn't need any mastering at all?? If it's possible to track and mix in such a way as to not need mastering, why are there so many "mastering masters" out there? (and I'm not looking for the answer that they are there to fix all the bad mixes everybody else makes....)

I have been thru every process I have avilable, hundreds in fact, and there is no way that any combination of those plugins and processing I have will do to the sound what Ozone or any mastering process does to the sound. I dont think I'm just too dumb to figure it out, I think it is not possible to emulate the "Ozone effect" just using all the other familiar tracking and mixing tools available.

Sorry, John, not wanting to argue with you, but it seems to me like you've implied a "recursive answer." If it were possible, then wouldn't we have a lot of better mixers, and few if any masterers?

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree Soundchaser! I have found in books of audio about the masterig, and many autors say that...a good mix, in the ideal worl doesn't need mastering, but in real world it does, even if it is a good mix, always there are details to "fix" in mastering.
I think ...is very easy to say that about the sound sources....if they are good, you will have a good mix....even the sounds mix them selves, so whats the work of the mixer ingeenier?, also the mastering ingeenier...whats really his work?
I mean..the mastering gives a texture, a "sound" to the mix, or to a whole album, between otheres features like having the same "sound" played in any system, or to have a "normal" volume level, etc. I think mastering has a lot of pro tricks, but they are not revealed because they come from the experience of the mastering pro ingeeniers.

About Ozone....I dont always use it, but sometimes I use the maximizer and themultiband compressor, it is very useful to give a "punch" touch of on the bass frequencies...try it compressing the low band and then give gain on just that band, you will get a nice big bottom!

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, there are usually details that are "fixed" in the mastering stage - Probably 90% of the time there's something somewhere. Sometimes it's "nothing" (a little overall EQ tweak from a freaky monitoring situation in the mixing room), sometimes it's unbelievable that it made it all the way to the mastering phase (VDO whine, which is probably on a full third of every home and project studio recording that comes in here). All the way up to and including crazy stuff (like "no kicks" on the fourth song) that requires remixing.

But that's the rub - The only reason it's something that needed a "fix" is that it got past the previous steps of quality control. And that's fine - That's normal. But it's not like mastering guys are in it to "fix" things - It's first and foremost about objective listening - The processing is secondary.

Other than trying to bring a level of cohesiveness holistically to the project and trying to insure the best translation to the widest possible array of playback systems, of course.

I think it's "misunderstanding of mastering" week though - I don't think a lot of people understand how rare *not* going through the "traditional" mastering process is... Last year, it was front page news (literally) on about every industry rag I read when Iron Maiden requested a flat transfer from the mastering facility. They specifically requested no further processing. That's a very (front-page worthy, evidently) unusual request...
Quote:
why aren't all the mastering masters acting as mixers instead, and just putting the whole mastering business outa business?

It's even more rare when you'll find a mastering engineer who will master his own mixes. I've done it on a few occasions and regretted every one of them but one. I have no objectivity on my own mixes. And the obvious physical limitations - Mastering in the same room or on the same monitoring system that a project was mixed on... Any problems, even little ones, are going to be *multiplied* - not minimized, in the process.

In any case, they're two completely different disciplines...

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining......heard and understood.

My situation is I have to settle for the best product I can produce myself, I cannot afford real mastering, instead I have Ozone and a few canned "mastering" toys that came built in to the software, and now I am looking for favorite trips and ticks from anyone who has or is using Ozone.

Someone else said he clicks thru the presets, finds one that is reasonably cool or close, then he disables all the modules and listens to the effect of each module one by one. Seems like a good way to start learning.

Another guy said he prefers to tweak his stereo image using an old Behringer Edison instead of the stereo imager in Ozone, but he relies heavily on the multi-band modules in Ozone, particularly the mb compressor to punch up the lower end and the mb exciter to punch up the higher end of things.

I am wondering if anyone has used the "matching eq" feature where it references an averaged eq curve from a known source like a store bought cd, and uses that reference to suggest an eq curve for my own mix.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's where I'll totally disagree - Whether "DIY'ing" or not, there has to be a game plan - Some sort of goal in mind. Once you start rummaging through presets or trying to "match spectrums" of another recording, you're spitting into the wind.

Presets and spectrums can show you what something is capable of -- But if you don't know what you want to hear, it goes back to the "why didn't you make it sound like that during the mixing phase" scenario. "Different" will many times sound "better" to the listener on the surface. "Louder" will many times sound "better" on the surface also.

The point (mixing OR mastering) is to *know* what you're shooting for in the context of what is available (the potential in the tracks or the mixes) and then just do it.

I won't even get started on maul-the-band filters and MB compression... I can barely think of a reason to use them on someone else's mixes. I can't for the life of me think of a scenario to use one on my own mixes. If something is that screwy that it needs it, go back to the mix and fix it there.

If your mix game is down, there's no reason that you shouldn't be able to just throw a limiter across the buss and pretty much have what you're looking for. If it's not there, find out why and address it as early as possible. Not during the final phase.

I don't mean for any of that to sound "harsh" - It's just freaky. The best thing a mastering engineer could ever tell me is "It was fine - I just strapped a limiter on it and dropped a little 2.5k that came up because of the limiter." Although they usually tend to need more than that. But I'll have them call me if something is whacky enough to require MB processing on any level. For example, if something "needs" MBC, I'll put it on what needs it. Not on the entire mix.

If your mixes "need" processing to *your* ears - And *you're* the one doing the processing, go back a couple steps before going forward.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now I'm sorry I asked.....

No offense, everything you say makes sense and can be very helpful...

But now I have no way of knowing if nobody in here uses Ozone??

Or if the Ozone users here are simply not willing to speak up after the O.Q. is so readily shot down....

I now finally understand why so many amateurs hate asking questions around the pros.... sometimes great advice is actually the answer to the original question.......and sometimes it's just great advice. Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I'll jump into the fire. I have Ozone and I have Bias, both 'mastering/editing' software. Ozone works within a session (in my case ProTools) and Bias works outside of PT.

Have you checked out the videos on the Izotope website?

initially I thought Ozone was way cool, applied it to everything and ultimately rendered my mixes to mush... now I will ocassionally use the MB compresser, the reverb, and the parametric (mainly to find troublesome frequencies)

Bias I use strictly to put together playlists on a CD as it allows me to see all the waveforms in consecutive track order and get the levels consistent, and then burn directly to CD . I've used few of the plug-ins that come with it.

Both were originally bought with the intention of being able to master at home, (and specifically for our bands current project) now they're used more to get a quick-down-and-dirty "commercial" level so me or whoever I'm working with has something to drive around and listen to, then decide what to do next. And actually, the 2 plug-ins I seem to use most on my final mixes are Steve Masseys CT4 (compresser) and L2007 limiter, and both were well worth the money (even though demo's work fine, and are free... and reset to a default setting each time you use them)...

how's my mastering coming on the bands project?

... I convinced the boys in the band that it's better to send to someone else for mastering, and we've chosen Crazy Daisy Production in Oregon to do it. (and I sorta made it clear I wouldn't have any objectivity after listening to the songs more times than I can count). And the final stereo track(s) are pretty much stripped of any compression and limiting (I'll leave that to the ME)

So my"advice" is spend some time and try all that Ozone has to offer and trust your ears/compare to a commercial mix you're familiar with. I think it has some useful "modules" and you may find some that are perfect for your ear/tastes.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I even have Ozone. I've just never found it useful. Yeah, I can't complain about the dithering. But I don't "wow" it like some others do either.

But the point isn't Ozone - It's *knowing* Ozone (or anything else for that matter) - What it does, what it doesn't do, what it takes to get from point "A" to point "B" with it. If that's what's in the stable, take it for a ride. But experiment with it "on your own time" - Mess with it on things that don't matter.

When you sit down to go to work on something "for real," you should listen to it and immediately come up with a "mental visualization" of what the finished product should sound like, and have an immediate understanding on what to do to get it in the ballpark.

But this then goes back to the "if you're listening to it now and you want to change it..." thing again.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stainless wrote:
I convinced the boys in the band that it's better to send to someone else for mastering, and we've chosen Crazy Daisy Production in Oregon to do it. (and I sorta made it clear I wouldn't have any objectivity after listening to the songs more times than I can count). And the final stereo track(s) are pretty much stripped of any compression and limiting (I'll leave that to the ME)

From the Crazy Daisy web site:
Quote:
(FAQ) How can Crazy Daisy Mastering provide so many features and effects for such a low cost?

Because we employ an intelligent computer algorithm to accomplish some of the basic mastering tasks (snip)

You may have just as much objectivity as their "intelligent computer algorithm." But who knows - let us know how it turns out.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that as well, along wit pretty much most everything on the site and then e-mailed several times wit questions I had, all of which were answered promptly.

An old friend of mine that I used to play with years ago has used them for a couple of CD's www.danbighandscolvin.com/, and I've heard some final mixes before mastering and after and it sounds good to me. We were also considering Mr. Toads, but the final decision was based on the personal reference and had little to do with the $100- $150 bucks or so price difference.

and your absolutely right I might have as much objectivity as their intelligent... but my ears have heard this material way too many times.

We should finalize the mixes this week and then send off, so whether it was worth it or not will be easier for me to tell in about 2 - 3 weeks. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for elaborating, guys, and I DO appreciate your time commenting.

I do need to keep it in perspective. Ozone is a tool, but to be used how? and when? and by whom?

You have shed some light on those issues, and made me think.

I will learn all I can about Ozone and the mastering process in general. I will definitely have fun with it.

But in the end it's quite possible I will end up doing the best I can do with Ozone, then sending a plain ole vanilla mix out for real mastering and see how it compares to what I do myself. I know there are great mastering places out there who will do things I cannot, and it will be interesting to compare. I think I realize that these tools are useful and fun, but they are not the end all be all, rather they are another marker along the route!

Thanks for the comments!

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own Ozone, either version 1 or 2. I don't use it for anything anymore. There are a couple of things it's OK for, but I've found better plugs that I like more.

It has a good audio spectrum display. But Voxengo has one that's just as good and is free.

It's got a decent limiter (which it calls a "Loudness Maximizer"). But there's a freebie called something like "George Yhong's Limiter" that is better (maintains better clarity) IMO.

I always thougt Ozone's EQ, MP Compression etc. really hurt the clarity. The stereo widener sounded cool. But hurt mono compatability. And it's been years since I used it. I have to imagine that as I got better at mixing, the stereo widener is not as helpful.

So yeah, I own it. Yeah it's not awful. But I don't have a use for it anymore. And I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone (at least I can't think of a situation where I would).

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah there are some very good free plugins , and some are better than Ozone, even you can use diferent plugin modules, one limitter, one stereo enhancer, one multiband compresor and you will get very good results too, even if they are free or comercial, but thats true there are other plugins and you have not to pay for them, thats a little plus!
O zone is a good plugin but to get the best ot it you have to really understand its working, and i think there are more intuitive and easy to use similar plugins.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And where do I find these free plugins??? Can you give me some links??
Thanks!

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

soundchaser59 wrote:
And where do I find these free plugins??? Can you give me some links??
Thanks!



Voxengo has several good things, many of them free - http://www.voxengo.com/ The spectrum analyzer I spoke about is called Span I think.

The other product that replaced a function of Ozone was George Yohng's limiter.

http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html

I'm not saying either of these are the best in the world. I'm just saying that to my ear (and eye) they're as good or better than what's in Ozone.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S., the Yohng limiter uses the native VST interface. So it looks really crappy and is a bit difficult to operate. But it sounds pretty good.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are all require Windows right?
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure of all the platforms supported by each individual product. But yes I run them all on Windows. You'd need to go to the websites to find if there is Mac or other support offered.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are VST and I do have FXpansion, but the websites only whows Windows... so I sent them an e-mail. I'll post the reply
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reply from Voxengo-

Sad Hello,

We are currently working on full Mac OS X support, but right now
Voxengo plug-ins are available for Windows only. Thank you for your
interest, and sorry.

Best regards,
Aleksey

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a mastering engineer but I find Ozone to be pretty bad ass...for what it is...a 200$ multi FX...mastering tool.

I find that if you throw it on your master buss and then mix...you get the best result. When you try and do it after you have your mix done...then you will usually find that it does nothing for you.

Lately I have been using ozone for its multi band compression (very slight compression), EQ and slight harmonic xciter (very very slight) and then the MASSEY Limiter and everything is working pretty good for me.

I am able to take a mix that I'm happy with and get the levels up to par with major recordings. If a client wants to pay for mastering I would by all means send it out because of the Objectivity a set of un biased ears can lend. Hell this is why someone different should mix as well.

EDIT: I guess my advice would be to use it sparingly and put it on your master before you mix.
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