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 !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! >&g
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oldorphanrat Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to jump into that thread that late but i thought there was something missing:
the loudness war is about maximising RMS (as opposed to peak) level. Industry standard used to be -18 now it's about -6; (relative to peak)
the rms to peak relationship tells you about the actual dynamics of a signal.
just my A$ 00.2;
@dreamcatcher: pretty much everybody here has some material up somewhere, so we can tell if they know what they are talking about. Why don' t you do likewise.
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Enforcer{EMC} Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi
even though this is a old thread i never fail to smile when im reading these threads irrespective of there age.
Andy
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Sloop Offline



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: !___________<<< Loudness War, Loud is clear! &g Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:
-6db = - 1bit

Less Volume is Less Bitrate = Less sharpness when you zoom in (turn up the volume) after the export!

Just like in graphic, when you create a Sci-fi picture in photoshop.
if you will export it in small size, you won't be able to see the picture as clear in big size, becuase it will lose sharpness when you zoom in! (specially the small details will appear blurry). the smallest size when you export, the less Pixels that image will contain.

Same goes with the sound!
When you "squash" a little bit the sound, you save sharpness and dynamics for BIG PARTIES with BIG SOUNDSYSTEM even for the small details in ur track!!!
these days if you won't do it well, your music will sound weak in big sound system compare to other artists, not becuase the volume but becuase the "headroom" bitrate of the sound.

lets just say, that the lower the volume is after exported, the less "unit of information" it contains

just like with busy mix with lots of instruments to easy mix with few instruments, the more instruments you got, you have to turn their volume down and down...while everytime you decrease an instrument by 6db, you decrease it by -1bit!

by making everything as loud as possible you earn bit "headroom" that can be used well in the final mix, after you have mixed everything you should use multiband compressor to get the maximum volume you can without touching the master fader (keep it 0db always) becuase the master fader is a zoom in/out, just like in image pixels, the biggest you export it, the better it will shine when zoom in after the final accomplished and exported!

That's kinda new point of view that I was thinking.
I know my english kinda sux, but I hope you understand my point.


Any comments welcome. ^_^


Gee, I guess that's why those sonically perfect passages of a solo violin sound so bad (please note the sarcasm expressed....).

If you believe quiet means lack of quality... go back to school...
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Enforcer{EMC} Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi
I think i understand what he/she saying. English is obviously not their first language. Is he trying to say with the higher bit rates comes higher quality due to the increased bit rate resolution?
Andy
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Sloop Offline



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enforcer{EMC} wrote:
hi
I think i understand what he/she saying. English is obviously not their first language. Is he trying to say with the higher bit rates comes higher quality due to the increased bit rate resolution?
Andy


But that isn't right.....

Sampling rates are what matter, not loudness.. Past a certain point, faster sampling rates don't really matter either.
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Enforcer{EMC} Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi
yea but is that what shes tryign to say? Apart from the"I played in big festival thing" I find it hard to follow exactly what shes trying to state or maybe its me not understanding her English. I understand that she thinks were really arrogant hehehe.
Andy
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MASSIVE Mastering Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sloop wrote:
But that isn't right.....

Sampling rates are what matter, not loudness.. Past a certain point, faster sampling rates don't really matter either.

Bit depth matters a whole lot more than sample rates...

I'm not arguing "against" high sample rates, but when you factor in wider frequency response that:

* Few sources create
* Few microphones can respond to
* Few preamps can process
* Few amplifiers can reproduce accurately
* Even fewer speakers can reproduce efficiently
* Even fewer humans can hear

against resolution that's almost immeasurably higher (24 bit having 256 times the resolution of 16-bit), and downward headroom beyond human capacity *and* a dynamic range beyond the capacity of pretty much *any* piece of gear on the planet, it's sort of a TKO - IMO.

YMMV.

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SAB Offline
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Dreamzcatcher, do you really look like that girl in the pic? Damn......
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Enforcer{EMC} Offline
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi sab
10 bucks says not but ive been known to be wrong lol
Andy
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SAB Offline
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enforcer{EMC}, with looks like that I would agree with her any day of the week.

"Loudness War, Loud is clear!"
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SAB Offline
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enforcer{EMC}, with looks like that I would agree with her any day of the week.

"Loudness War, Loud is clear!"
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Sloop Offline



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading all of this I think I have to appologize. I was thinking you were talking about making everything loud.. like so many recording companies are doing now.

Yes, you need to get as much recorded sound as you can without clipping. I agree, the more you record the more you have to work with. BUT, there are times when quiet recordings are what you want, say in a quiet section of a piece of music. I try and set the recording gear to the maximum volumes for an instrument.

Recording at 24 bit, even if the instrument goes to -20db I still have a huge amount above the noise floor. So there is plenty to work with.
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jelstro Offline
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:


Anyway I played in so many festivals I doubt you will ever do half of what I do in a year.



Speaking of arrogance...
I play in basements to 20 or so drunken kids... what's your point?

Back on track...

I think the article linked on the first reply to this thread pretty much sums up this whole ongoing battle.
There's a history to it and everyone has their opinion as to what's right or wrong based on whether their an aural purist or whether they prefer to grab attention against everything else on the market.

I lean more towards the former myself. I play an acousticly driven style of music and used to feel the need to smash everything against the wall to compete with everything else, but have since started pulling back and trying to let the dynamic range speak out a bit more.
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Enforcer{EMC} Offline
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi
np sloop bit rate is everything as has been pointed out thats why dithering down to 16 bit is the last process in the mastering so you have that extra resolution to work with. Musical dynamic are something different in any case massive has pointed that out.

But you do have a point musical dynamics are as important as everything else something that is lost in many of the masters that i do simple because volume is what the clients want. However you can give the illusion of dynamics to a certain extent depending on you mastering techniques I use alot of manly equipment and custom designed rack specifically for mastering and used in the right way can to a certain degree "fake" dynamics ( I know this is a poor choice of words).

Dynamics are an important musical device that is easily lost in the wash of compressors and limiters. But things are changing slowly (at least with my clients) Clarity and sonic integrity are more important to me that just thrashing a l2 or l3 and calling it mastering. I have managed to break all my regular studios out of this wacka limiter on the master bus and mix with it attitude and tehy have all thanked me for it, much cleaner and louder albums with the kind to clarity in the tops and bottoms that often get lost when mixing with a master buss compressor as can dynamics.

blah blah blah
and to that other guy I aggres she is hot but I bet you its a balding man with false teeth lol lol
Andy
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discjockey Offline
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamzcatcher wrote:
Trojka wrote:
Read this...


Nothing new...you can be sure that I already knew that.

however...he didn't write about the lose of bitrate! lose of sharpness! in sound reinforcement!


We are really NOT interested in what you already know.
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