Will the loudness wars ever end?

[sonicpaint]

I just did a one song remix and Mastering (if we can call it that on just one song) and it always comes down to the same questions when it comes down to the "level correction" part of Mastering.

I always ask myself; should I keep my dynamics all in tacked? Should I peg the meter? Should I do a little of both?

Personally the loudness wars really suck because if we don't make our final mix loud then to the average listener, our recordings don't sound professional or you seem to hear, "it sounds great but it's missing something". Then you play it next to a commercial CD and the dynamics of your song is a million times better than the commercial CD but yet the commercial CD is what listeners(without recording mixing and mastering skill or knowledge) seem to enjoy more.

I mean let's face it the loudness wars have been going on for a while and I don't see and end to it. If this is the case how do we get back to basics? How can us hobbyists produce a final product for sale with the volume(loudness) of our program material lower than what's commercially being released by the "big boys".

I'd like to know how others deal with the "pressure" of having to make mixes louder than we'd like. With our product always being compared to what is being released by the major record labels, it's not always easy to go against the grain and do what we all know is right.

So I ask you how do you feel about this? Do you go through the same questions when "level correcting"? Looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

sonicpaint

[dtb]

I know this is a big deal, especially to the folks here that have big talent, and nice studio surroundings. And it should be. But after reading your post I got to thinking, and just kinda realized something. Other than my wife, other family, and a very few of you folks here, the only peeps that listen to "my" tunz, are my music friends, and to the one, none of them have a "real" sound system. Hell, a couple of'em just have boomboxes. If they listen at my house they hear a different sound anyway.

And I think my little mixes sound pretty good thru my sound system. I track and mix kinda "hot", so there's stuff there that they don't hear on their systems. And this doesn't really bother me too much, cause I know I won't ever have high end gear, or the smarts to use it, unless I win the big one. And shit, if I ever do win the big one, I'll pay someone else to do it for me. Of course then, I only have to worry about having no talent what so ever.

[teainthesahara]

Good post.

Another question to ask, one in which maybe part of the answer lies, is how do we/the industry make 'dynamic range' a marketable, desirable trait? Maybe it'll happen as a vintage niche market at first - kind of like the 'lofo' thing...who knows....

I try to stay reasonable. As in in-the-ballpark, but not numetal or red hot chillipeppers style of limiting. To be honest, I've never been asked to push the volume until dynamic obliteration - but if thats what they want, thats what they want. That is what is "right" for them i guess.

[M.Brane]

The customer is always right.

If they want you to squash the piss out of their finished mixes so they can have that "fat" "slammin" "major label" sound i.e. clip the CD player then by all means take their money, and squash away.

Louder is better right? Stereo salesmen have made commisions off that fact for years.

True fidelity has always been the realm of AE's, ME's, and audiophiles. The public at large really has no clue, and most likely never will. Most hardcore musicians I've known don't care all that much either.

The world is full of boom boxes, and cheap surround-sound. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean we have to give up on our little clique of sonic perfection though. We'll always be here too just under the pop radar.

[sonicpaint]

It almost hurts when you baby a recording from nothing to a finished product only to hear that 6db average to peak ratio is still not loud enough to compete with todays hard rock music. Hip Hop and Pop in most cases have a larger average to peak ratio but that's only due to percussive nature of the program material and even then it's still limited quite a bit to get it to be"loud enough".

I agree that the client is what decides what they want in regards to their music but are they really "qualified"(educated enough) to make a knowledgeable decision in that respect? Shouldn't it be the Audio and Mastering Engineers job to educate them?

I think for me, the hardest thing to do is record your own music and have it sound great with out killing the dynamics totally and still being told that it's not "professional" simply because of a couple db(or a few in some cases). Then you turn it up and kill the dynamics and it's "Pro"...... It's just humorous how the uneducated "listeners" are the ones dictating the educated on what sounds professional. Don't you think?

How do you guys feel in regard to your own music and the loudness wars? Do you guys peg the needle and not worry about the dynamics or are you more conservative?

Simply put for me, I'll make my "Masters" at the very least 6 db average to peak ratio. If a client takes it home and thinks it needs to come up more then " A squashing we will go, A squashing we will go, high ho the merry-oh, A squashing we will go." Don't ask me why I did that.....

Us home recording audio engineers/musicians are only human.

sonicpaint

[M.Brane]

I hear ya' dude. It would be nice if most people had good equipment, and were more into music like back in the '70's.

When you look back at the drastic decline in the quality of home stereo equipment since the late '70's, the impact of MTV, and file swapping/MP3's it's hard to not be discouraged. Sound quality just deosn't seem to be a priority for as many people as it used to.

Hell I even do the MP3 thing for convenience. Seems like the business is going back to a singles oriented thing. It's not all bad. It's introduced me to a lot of good music that I probably wouldn't have heard otherwise. Good music is good even if the medium isn't the greatest. Feel over sonics I always say.

I can't see the audiophile thing going away though. In fact the audiophile world seems to be pretty healthy judging from all the stuff I've found in my websurfing adventures. There is a lot of bullshit out there for fools with more money than ears. Ever seen the expensive little stands to keep your speaker wires off the floor?

I think we will see people putting out dual product. Cheap/free MP3's for easy distribution/promotion, and CD/DVDA/SACD/? (pick a format) for those that listen more intently. I still enjoy turning the lights down, and listening to an entire album from time to time. I was doing that long before I got into this AE stuff, and even before I got serious about playing guitar.

Not that my guitar playing was ever that serious.

[sonicpaint]

[Sonic]

I don't subscribe to the loudness game. The last album I sent out west for mastering came back squashed to jebus...took me sending it back 5 times to get it pulled back out of the roof. Too bad cause now I'm sending all my stuff down to Portland to a dude who knows what I want. Right Ed? lol

I make my views known right away before taking on a project and if they want it slammed up into the ceiling I send em walking. I don't spend a year per record to have all the life slammed out of it. No thanx.

I think if you subscribe to the loudness game you're only adding to the problem and the more people who actually want to preserve and enhance the work they've spent so much time and energy creating the better the records will sound.

If it sounds like a million bucks from a good mastering job that will translate to any medium whether it be mp3 downloads or streaming from the web....

[teainthesahara]

[Sonic]

It is subjective of course...it is after all a matter of taste. The loudness game doesn't even offer any characterizations af artists for me tho as all I usually have gotten...(only when a few mastering gigs have gone foul) is a big change in not only dymanics but tone and feel as well...something that took alot of time to create...all changed. Sucks when that happens.

[sonicpaint]

I have to agree with Sonic on this one. I think he's right when he said

[M.Brane]

My VU's shall remain calibrated at 0 = -14dbfs.

If it ain't loud enough for ya you need to get a real stereo system, and a clue.

Good thread guys.

[sonicpaint]

[Dafduc]

I do most of my CD listening in a car - and I spend a LOT of time in the car --- 4-5 hours a day on average. Since I can't afford a quiet luxury ride, I deal with a lot of road and engine noise. Tunes with wide dynamic range are nearly unlistenable, or else I gotta drive with one hand on the radio all the time.

Listening at home ain't much better - TX blaring in the other room, loud conversations, screaming grandkid. If I ever get to have a "just me and the music" moment, I appreciate the dynamics, but they're more a detriment in my daily listening routine...

Daf

[M.Brane]

Maybe we should extend the dual product line to include dual mixes. We can have the car stereo compression mix, and the audiophile wide dynamics mix. :idea:

These days I think a lot of people have better systems in their cars than they do in their living rooms. Gotta be careful with that though. I know some of my tinnitus is from years of trying to get the music louder than the road noise in a large truck.

[axemanchris]

Yeah, good thread. This is, unfortunately, one of those many insances where the uneducated consumer makes demands based on what they like - and what they like is a historical legacy of sold-to-the-masses-schlock.

I mean, really... TV..... Survivor and Average Joe. Theatres..... Hulk re-makes and Terminator XXIV. Music.... Brittney Spears and Eminem.

One could even argue, and I often do, that pop music in general - whether it be classic rock, nu metal, country, hip-hop, whatever - lacks a certain amount of musical credibility. Same three or four chords, same half-dozen or so progressions, mostly average to below-average musicianship, but catchy little pop-ditties.

Comparing it to food, you could say that gourmet restaurants are few and far between.

That said, I happen to *like* my bag of Miss Vickie's sea-salt and malt vinegar potato chips, Rolo ice cream, and my Goo Goo Dolls CD's. Sure, it's not gourmet (and I DO like the good stuff....) but I like it nonetheless.



Chris

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I hate to say that one of the first things I want to know from a client is "how important is sheer volume?"

The sad part is that with most of them, that's the MOST important factor.

I remember back when the Earth was cooling and CD-R's were $80 each that a crest factor of 15 was really loud. Now, if you don't kick it up to 12 or even 10 the clients are complaining about the volume.

The really crappy part is that the mastering engineer's focus used to be all about "good sound" and the preservation of the dynamic range, and currently, it's about "make it as loud as you can." Now, there are wonderful sounding recordings out there that have been squished to death with a crest factor of 10 or 8 that sound like garbage. I'm surprised these guys want their names on them.

I had a "touch of reality" just a short while ago - I was working on a project for a client that said "just do what you do as long as you do it well." Halfway through everything, my apprentice was surfing Bob Katz's site and called me up & told me to check something out. I went to his site (www.digido.com) and found out that the album I was working on is the (to be released soon) follow-up recording to an album on his "CD Honor Roll" page.

BOOM - Right there, I started the whole thing over. I realized that without even thinking about it, like it was a reflex, I was boosting the volume of the original tracks. I've gotten so used to "make it loud" that it was almost automatic. It was a "moment of clarity" if you will, that hit me like a ton of bricks.

Now the differences were pretty subtle between what I was doing and what I did do. But just knowing that the "brainwashing" that has so infected the artists was spreading up and down the chain was a discomforting thought. And it IS the artists & labels that are pushing most of it. As a listener, does anyone really care if they have to kick it up a notch when you put in a certain CD? As long as it's "reasonable" I certainly don't care... This is all about keeping up with the Joneses.

Anyway, this is my confession. I won't do it again. Except when the client asks to (which is about 75% of the time), so I'll be doing it again in the morning.

But yes, as engineers it is OUR responsibility to educate the client as best we can. The client is always right, but if we can talk them down by just a dB or two, we can at least stop the snowball effect that it's having on the industry now.

Gee, will you look at the time...

[M.Brane]

Good post MM. Thanks for keeping the faith.

[Track Rat]

Eduacation is all we can do. It IS a heartbreaker though to hear complaints from bands about "low volume". I had a band just recently complain that the mix I gave them wasn't as loud as the CDs they listen to. I told them for one thing, it wasn't "mastered", just mixed and I had them bring me in some examples of stuff they thought was loud enough. I recorded them into the DAW and I showed them the wave forms, zoomed in where they could see the square waves and clipping. They grudgingly took my word but I could tell they were dissapointed. So I ran there stuff through a Timeworks mastering compressor and squished the living shit out of it. They loved it.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

God, that sucks.

Well, if nothing else, 0 is still 0. We can't really get much louder than we're at now (without some sort of change in the program - [EDIT] meaning the laws of physics [/EDIT]).

Hopefully, it's a fad. I doubt it, though... But, there's always that little bit of hope...

[sonicpaint]

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I should (and will change if allowed) that what I mean by "change in the program" I mean the current laws and physics of the Universe.

[Doug H]

I've been th8nking about this recently and have a theory, they will end to some degree when DVDs become the standard.

the red book (like I really know what that means) 16 bit 44100 was chosen for a couple reasons. The 44100 as a viable compromise given the human hearing range. I think the 16 bit was more relalted to the current state of technology at the time.

Obviously there the unavoidable "my penis is bigger than your penis" factor, but I'm betting that 16 bits sounds lusher at the red line than it does at lower dynamic ranges. To make things worse, there's going to be a contributing fear factor to make the most possible use of 16 bits. THe general public may not be in the know enough to contribute to this, but there's plenty of people in the pipeline that are going to effect the direction of the industry.

I wouldn't be surprised if 24 or 32 bit media brings about a reverse marketing towards more dynamic range in published recordings.

[sonicpaint]

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Once it actually gets more popular, DVD-A is probably the next victim...